Lock up your daughters!

[dolorous_ett]

I feel deeply sorry for poor Lucie Blackman and her family. Nobody deserves to have that happen to them.

I also agree that when you're away from home you should take sensible precautions over your personal safety and be sensitive to local sensibilties.

But am I alone in finding this article, with its strong implications that women are too fragile to be let out alone in Foreign Parts, patronising, scaremongering and annoying?

And why the emphasis on women? Men need to be careful too. When I lived overseas a few of my foreign friends got involved in very nasty fights. With one exception they were all male.

Comments

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

I assume British women are never murdered in Britain? < /sarc >

Quite. Or by people they know and trust...

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

Two women a week are murdered in the UK by a current or former partner, but I don't see the BBC saying "Don't live with a man, you'll die".

"If you are going to a bar, try to do it with a group of people that you trust," Mr Searle says.My sister got drugged in a London bar at a table populated solely by her work colleagues. Fortunately, the other person involved, whoever he may have been, was unaware of her delicate stomach and propensity for violent vomiting faced with any contamination of food or drink.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

That's horrible - and disturbing. I hope she's OK.

Which does not mean that I think she should stay indoors for evermore.

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

She was fine – it was about 18 months ago. Threw up in toilets, taken home by friends, spent next day in hospital on a drip. Too late to test, but staff were pretty convinced by symptoms, and there was a suspicious timing of her partner (who would otherwise have been there) being away. She was off work for a couple of days, and did spread the story around the office, albeit as "a stranger must have got my drink when no-one was looking, we must all be very careful". She had already been planning to leave for other reasons, but this hardly encouraged her to change her mind, and I think there were a couple of non-immediate colleagues that she wondered about as possible suspects.

For a certain value of "fine"...

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

I'm glad no permanent harm was done, but having to spend a day in hospital on a drip still seems pretty serious to me!

I'm glad she's out of that job. It doesn't sound like a good place to be.

[tree_and_leaf]

Aargh. That's utterly terrifying. I'd find it very difficult to continue working in that office - I'd always be wondering what was in the coffee. I do hope she's OK.

[tree_and_leaf]

A remarkably silly article, I agree.

Oddly enough, the only 'foreigners in Japan' story that I've heard from an acquaintance involved a young man being run out of town by the mafia after a row about a minor traffic accident. Stay away from cars, people!

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

Driving in Japan seems to be a surprisingly hazardous occupation - I know of a similar case in which someone ended up in a lot of trouble with the police! OMG stay away from cars!

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

Oy. It is awful -- I don't deny that -- but if you're sensible you can travel just about anywhere. Two of my good friends travelled to Japan; one even lived there for a year, and nothing ever happened to them. Then again, they tend ot have a great deal of common sense.

I'd say there's just as high a risk of being killed horribly in your home country as there is abroad. In fact, I feel infinitely safer walking down a street in Paris than I do in Dayton. At least I'm less likely to get shot for the $20 in my purse.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

I think common sense is the key - if you act in a daft way it increases the likelihood of something nasty happening to you. I think that's why I'm so irritated that pretty young women are being highlighted as particularly at risk - neither of these have a direct conncction with being daft!

[ms-wanderlust.livejournal.com]

I have to say that, although the emphasis on women in the article is a bit off-putting, my experiences overseas (in Bolivia less so, but much more in India and SE Asia) have shown me how unprepared so many people are for the differences in culture. I saw so many people behaving in ways which were totally inappropriate for both Buddhist and Hindu societies. Before I went to Nepal, I had a year's training, a decent proportion of which was in cross-cultural studies. As the article says, in these days of the internet, there really is no excuse for people remaining ignorant of the culture and etiquette of the countries which they visit.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

my experiences overseas (in Bolivia less so, but much more in India and SE Asia) have shown me how unprepared so many people are for the differences in culture. I saw so many people behaving in ways which were totally inappropriate for both Buddhist and Hindu societies.

I agree completely - I've seen people acting in a grossly rude and disrespectful fashion overseas as well - it annoys the hell out of me, and no doubt adds to these people's risk of getting beaten up.

You've said it - there's no excuse for people not respecting the culture in a country where they are guests.

On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that that was what was going on in Ms Blackman's case - she seems to have integrated herself pretty thoroughly into local culture. It all comes back to the notion that it's not safe to let pretty little things out alone - which was the thing I disliked about the article, not the warnings about getting informed.

[ms-wanderlust.livejournal.com]

I agree with your point about the one-sidedness of the article. I just allowed myself a little rant about cultural insensitivity. It's a pet peeve of mine. A friend told me that when their hotel in Thailand was caught in a flood and everyone was evacuated to the local Buddhist monastery, the monks couldn't have been more helpful. Then Lizz went into one of the main rooms and found a couple lying on the floor, feet pointing directly towards the Buddha, the guy had no top on and the girl was wearing a spaghetti-strap top and they were playing cards! She said the monks would probably have just put it down to "tourists" but even so.......half-dressed, gambling, pointing feet at the Buddha.....I read one website about Thai customs before going (as I knew the friends I was meeting would give me more information as they live in Thailand) and I knew that was inappropriate behaviour to the nth degree!

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

You get no argument with me - that was way out of line. And you see the same thing - if not quite so blatant - all over the place - even in Europe.

I hope it didn't spoil your Thailand adventure too much!

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

I wonder what those of us who go overseas to the shores of Britain are supposed to think? Are we more safe or less safe? Those shores are Dangerous Foreign Parts for some of us, you know.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

*terrifies you with kilts and bagpipes*

It's interesting reading the Dangers and Annoyances section in Britain handbook - a thing I never thought to do until recently - it seems we are nation of pickpockets, muggers, sneak theives and drunks. I'd no idea!

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

You forgot midges :)

And I agree, dumb article, though not nearly so bad as the scaremongering that goes on in the US (we don't really have a gap year culture here, as the general mindset is that any time not spent working or in school is wasted, and all too many American women would find the idea of traveling to a foreign country alone simply unthinkable).

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

(we don't really have a gap year culture here, as the general mindset is that any time not spent working or in school is wasted, and all too many American women would find the idea of traveling to a foreign country alone simply unthinkable).

That is a pity.

I'm curious about the American women finding the idea of traveling abroad unthinkable - is that because the US is such a big country that you can get to all kinds of places without needing a passport, or is it another kind of mindset?

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

I'm curious about the American women finding the idea of traveling abroad unthinkable - is that because the US is such a big country that you can get to all kinds of places without needing a passport, or is it another kind of mindset?

Well, there's a lot of fear-mongering here about women doing stuff alone, in general; and at the same time, a lot of Americans believe that traveling outside of the US is a) scary; and b) only for the very rich. (I have a friend who went to Italy -- his first time out of the country -- when he was thirty-something, and was pleasantly surprised to learn that airline tickets to Europe were not in the many-thousands-of-dollars range. So I suspect a lot of people write foreign travel off as beyond their means without actually taking the time to figure out how to make it within their means. In recent years, there's also been a lot of media-fueled paranoia about whether it's safe to travel abroad as an American -- and I'm talking about traveling to places like France here, not the Middle East. It's silly, but if you've never been outside of the US before, you have no way of knowing it's silly.)

The distances involved are obviously a contributing factor, but after all, Australians travel all over the place, and they live in a big, isolated country too. Some of the financial obstacles are real, however, especially for younger people -- many recent college graduates are paying off huge amounts of student loan debt, and since we don't have working holiday visa arrangements with other countries, there's no legal way to go to Australia and pick up casual work the way a lot of British kids do.

So, in short, a complicated issue, but I'm inclined to think it's more about culture than anything else.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

Fascinating... who'd have thought attitudes could be so different in two places with a common language?

Mind you, I suspect that my understanding of the US has been heavily coloured by the people who I've met over here and who are - by the sound of it - far from typical.

It's sad, really, to think that the outside world worries Americans. I'd always assumed that a lot of people just weren't interested.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Mind you, I suspect that my understanding of the US has been heavily coloured by the people who I've met over here and who are - by the sound of it - far from typical.

Heh, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "typical" American -- we are a country of many cultures, and people's attitudes toward travel depend hugely on class, education, and what part of the country they're from.

[aerama.livejournal.com]

It makes me disgusted too.

Cultural observances aside, I still don't like how it's okay for women to be treated as second-class citizens. For that's sort of what this article reminds me of. The whole "Well, what were you wearing?" aspect which makes it entirely the woman's fault that the man approached/invited/made a remark/raped her, etc. At some point, surely, certain subsections of humanity should be made to be accountable for their actions. The fact that it would most likely feel comforting rather than restrictive to veil your face in certain cultures says much.

Yet I don't even like going to shopping malls by myself. Too many things that happen in broad daylight when surrounded by people - it's crazy.

Hell, sometimes I wish I could hide around here.

Expanding it a bit...
It was interesting with the Internationals coming over here - the Indian guys, for example (Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, et al). Almost all of them got involved in relationships - but not one of them was with another Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/et al. (In fact, the Dutch girls were hot commodities.)

Outside of one couple that stayed together and actually got married, all the married guys now are with women from their own countries. Even the ones who came from more liberal families where a family member had married outside the culture, or even gotten a divorce, so you'd think the current generation would be more amenable.
I guess it's damn hard to escape from one's background, especially with centuries of tradition glaring at your every move.

What I didn't like was how by the mere nature of 'going out' with a girl, that automatically seemed to disqualify her for future marriage. Like it cheapened her, or something. Though oddly enough the guy considered himself unscathed. *grr*

So yeah: enough with the second (or third) class citizenship. Though it may come down to base humanity and not necessarily men against women. I tend to believe Locke when he says Man by nature is a savage beast. Sometimes it seems our veneer of civilization is very thin indeed.

Yet there's always hope, and enlightenment. Sometimes it seems we're very close to that as well - and other times so far away.

P.S. I love the drone of the bagpipes. And kilts tends to mean accents, and finding out that David Tennant is a Scot was most interesting. So I am NOT hiding from your kilts and bagpipes!! Bring 'em on!

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

People can be very peculiar when put outside their own culture. Some people seem to be on the run from their old lives, not realising that your baggage travels with you - and all too often gets even bigger and bulkier...

*sends kilts and bagpipes in your general direction*

[lyras.livejournal.com]

That's a very strange article. It keeps contradicting itself: solo women travellers are often the toughest, and yet unaware of the dangers of leaving Britain's shores. I wonder if the sub-editor had a different bias to the writer?

I'm very conscious of the need to be careful when abroad - all you have to do is wander the streets of Paris or any Italian town by yourself to realise that women are treated very differently even in cultures that are very close to our own. But I'm also conscious of the need to be...watchful, at least, at home.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the sub-editor had a different bias to the writer?

I bet you're right. It does seem to contradict itself.

I'm sure you do feel the need to be watchful - but there are so many cultural minefields if you don't watch yourself, even in Europe. I just find it a bit odd that it's sex that people home in on...

[dbassassin.livejournal.com]

This is just another typical case of the press grossly overgeneralising, again. Because, of course, one girl murdered overseas = OMGDanger!Danger!Everywhere.

That said, young women travelling overseas--often for the first time without parental supervision--can behave in remarkably stupid ways. Cultural senitivity (if it ever existed) tends to get thrown out the window after the third or fourth shooter. Throw guys into the mix (worse yet, guys from vastly different cultures who are going to interpret such behaviour in a different way than the girl expects) and trouble often follows.

And based on what I see of young tourists here (living in one of the world's top youth tourism destinations), young people travelling in groups are more likely to get into trouble than youngsters on their own. And guys get into trouble, too. There are some parts of the world that just don't seem safe at all anymore, based on recent attacks on tourists of all kinds. But a young woman on her own in a foreign country is going to be a target, that's just a fact of life. It's not to do with her, it's the just the nature of some men.

I don't mean to diminsh the risks to women in their home countries. But at home you know the culture, you know the lay of the land, you've developed some degree of street smarts for coping with situations, and you're not alone.

The article would have been much more valuable if it had focused on rising attacks on tourists (of all ages and both genders) in parts of the world once considered fairly safe, such as Mexico and some parts of the Caribbean. And some focus on responsible behaviour on the part of (all) tourists wouldn't go amiss, either.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of what you say. And it's interesting to see that even in tolerant Canada it's possible to get into dodgy situations...