Dolorous Ett&#39;s Bestiary

That was rather my feeling on the one occasion when I took such a class. I wasn't really in tune with most of my classmates, and I wouldn't have done most of the exercises off my own bat, but it did get me writing something once a week!

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vivien

That is what I was going to say!

Classes can lay a nice groundwork and give you practice to get going.

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fungus-files.livejournal.com

Sorry to be predictable, but

tree_and_leaf said what I was going to say, too. The classes definitely help with setting writing goals and getting you into the mode of self-critique and 'voice'. That said, I've ever only gone to short-term ones and promptly lost momentum after I finished with them! (my bad)

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Not just your bad, I think! I know I have been guilty of this.

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bookwormsarah.livejournal.com

I am a terrible one for starting stories and not completing them. My fiction folder is divided into WIPs, Complete and Abandonware. Complete is by far the smallest... Some of my WIPs have been ongoing for years (more than a decade in some cases). I can write short scenes or vignettes, but am not so good at longer plots (something mirrored in university essays). When I have time...

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tree_and_leaf

Are you sure you're not me? *g*

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I'm getting that way as well. Curiously, I don't have that problem with things in my professional life to anything like the same extent... not yet, anyway!

But I wish I had 10 years' original work behind me. I hardly ever write anything original, let alone finish it.

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Oh, goodness, those decade-long WIPs. I finally abandoned mine about five years ago. I may return in another five to raid it for some of its components.

YMMV, but I fell in love with National Novel-Writing Month because it established to me that I was too capable of finishing a rough draft, instead of getting dragged down into fractal edits.

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nineveh-uk.livejournal.com

I think that creative writing classes potentially offer a lot of diverse benefits. Those T&L mentions above, plus the discipline of practice (being in the wind band makes you get out your flute between rehearsals), the legitimising of the activity, and I'm sure there are others. My father has just started one with U3A. I don't know to what extent he sees himself as a creative writer, but he has enjoyed having writing exercises and working on them. I don't fancy the idea myself - I am too self-conscious about my original output, although I have on occasion discussed it with friends.

I have written tiny bits of poetry and would like to write more. I write a lot at work, and _I_ like it to be well-crafted as writing as well as its other functions, even if no-one else cares.

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(being in the wind band makes you get out your flute between rehearsals)

Brilliantly put.

The people in my creative writing class had nothing in common with me at all, but we were very good humoured about it, and listened to each others' writings with patience and approval - peer criticism was never an issue because we wanted such different things.

And I quite agree about writing for work being important. I just wish more people thought that way.

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waterbird.livejournal.com

I used to write a lot of original fiction and some poetry in school. The past few years it's mainly been fic, but I do want to get back to original stuff soon.

I think creative writing classes help people write if only by providing the structure some need to actually just get writing.

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I had no idea either about the original fiction or the poetry. It just goes to show how very narrow our knowledge of LJ friends can be sometimes... and I hope it continues to flourish.

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lareinenoire.livejournal.com

I took two creative writing classes as an undergraduate. The first was 200-level more or less introductory class where we did a lot of exercises, and that was fine. The second was a 500-level advanced class (back when I wanted to specialise in creative writing), and I hated it. A lot depends on the instructor, and for some reason my instructor was either unable to control the class, or just didn't have that much interest in it. The workshopping was a useful idea, but he made his disdain for 'genre fiction' so plain and clear at the beginning that those of us who were trying to write it -- and there were quite a few of us in that class -- were immediately turned off.

As a result, I think creative writing workshops have the potential to be very useful, but so much depends on the makeup of the group, and how they work. I found that writing fanfic actually improved my writing skills far more than either of the creative writing classes.

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I suspect the more hard-core the writing class, the more the temperament of both students and instructors is going to make a difference. It sounds like a nightmare - a course in something so personal, badly run, that you have to pass exams in! We're fortunate that you survived the experience.

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lareinenoire.livejournal.com

Oh, no exams, thank God! That would have been a nightmare of epic proportions! No, our final marks were based on what we'd written for the class and revisions we'd made based on the workshopping sessions. Granted, I'd ended up writing a rather emo story since we weren't permitted to write anything that could conceivably be classified as 'genre fiction' -- a problem since the majority of the original fiction I have any interest in writing is historical -- but I ended up doing okay in the end. I think he took pity on those of us who really tried.

Some of the stories I had to read, though? Terrible. Absolutely terrible.

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snorkackcatcher

Isn't a genre ultimately merely a subject area that's generally interesting enough to have a lot of people want to read and write stuff dealing with it? And doesn't a refusal to accept genre writing at all merely severely limit what you can write about (especially if historical fiction is included in that)? All right, it's a bit more than that as you really need conventions to be a proper genre, and thus there are potential issues with assumptions and cliches, but you get them anyway.

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lareinenoire.livejournal.com

Oh, yeah, that was what bothered me most about it -- the assumption that this weird, nebulous category of 'genre fiction' was somehow inferior to whatever it was he did want us to write. It was incredibly limiting, particularly for those of us who enrolled in the class in order to get feedback on things we actually wanted to write.

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lazy-neutrino.livejournal.com

What she said. Since she said it so much better than I ever could. :)

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ignipes.livejournal.com

The "something else" I would like to write but haven't gotten into yet is popular science for non-scientists. I love writing about science and explaining scientific things to people, but it's an area of writing I don't have any practice with yet.

I really enjoyed and got a lot out of the creative writing classes I took in college - I took two fiction classes and one poetry class - but I've since realize that my experience was somewhat unusual, mostly because the creative writing department at my university was infamous for being the unusual one. They have a very "learn the rules so you know how to break them" approach. A lot of those rules have stuck with me in a very helpful way, but so has the knowledge of the fun ways to break them.

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I think you would be wonderful at popular science writing - you have such a clear and engaging style, even when there aren't any zombies or yaks. *g*

And lucky you, to get the chance to do something like that at university. Not a sniff of it here.

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ignipes.livejournal.com

Yes, I do feel lucky, especially in retrospect. In theory, the classes were supposed to be so-called "literary" classes, and the official stance was to look down on genre literature. But in practice, people wrote horror, science fiction, romance, whatever they felt like. There was a lot of magical realism from the people actually majoring in creative writing, so I got the impression that was a favorite genre in the department. Both the teachers and the students in the class only discussed whether it was well written, not whether it was appropriate content for serious literature.

And there were no grades. At my university, anybody could opt to take any class pass/fail, but all of the creative writing classes were *only* pass/fail. If you wrote and participated, you passed.

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rj-anderson.livejournal.com

I think the usefulness of creative writing classes depends very much on the type of classes you are taking and the type of writing you plan to do. For instance, a university creative writing course dedicated to generating highbrow "literary" novels is, in general, going to be a pretty useless place for a children's author to be, because all they're likely to get is sneered at and told they should be writing "real" fiction. But if you're a children's author who wants to get a better handle on the market and conventions of your genre, something like a Highlights workshop or the Chautauqua course could be fantastically helpful and encouraging.

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For instance, a university creative writing course dedicated to generating highbrow "literary" novels is, in general, going to be a pretty useless place for a children's author to be, because all they're likely to get is sneered at and told they should be writing "real" fiction.

How maddeningly arrogant. I hope very much that this isn't taken from a real experience!

My Literary Auntie is always telling me that science fiction and fantasy aren't real books. But she gobbles up detective stories like anyone's business, so it just goes to show - reality is in the eye of the beholder. But I don't need to say that to a Published Author, do I?

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pandorasblog

- I also write reviews and the odd article on pop culture.
- Creative writing classes, from what I've heard, can either be the springboard to a hobby/career or a nightmare. Depends very much on the people involved, their individual and collectives goals, and the personality of the person going. Some people might get more out of a one-on-one mentoring relationship, or something else entirely.

[Sorry - had to delete and re-post because I realised I'd put in something that could theoretically bring up a Google result that would identify me from my LJ. That's what lack of sleep does. ;)]

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You were absolutely right to repost - never apologise for anything like that! I'm a big fan of maintaining Internet anonymity whenever possible.

I didn't know it was reviews and articles you wrote - I thought you were workign on a novel! Just goes to show...

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pandorasblog

It's more a case of juggling them both!

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lazy-neutrino.livejournal.com

Depends very much on the class: I've done the OU A174 'Start Writing Fiction' which was superb and also a night school led by an aspiring writer with no publications. Guess which was better.

Should maybe also say that I own some books on writing and some are quite frankly awesome.

Edited Date: 2009-03-26 06:03 pm (UTC)

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Guess which was better.

I wouldn't like to speculate, actually - it's my experience that the ability to understand something doesn't necessarily translate into the ability to pass it on. So which one was it, then?

Any particularly awesome books on writing you could recommend? I've never read one that really worked for me.

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lazy-neutrino.livejournal.com

(Catching up on Evil Backlog). It was actually the OU course - though I did meet one great person at the night school and we worked happily together for the whole ten weeks.

Awesome books: I really got a lot out of Ron Rozelle's 'Description and Setting' which is part of the 'Write Great Fiction' series. It had very concrete suggestions and exercises to try. I suspect the whole series is good, but that's the one that stands out for me, and something I felt I needed to work on. (I also have Plot and Structure from the same series, by James Scott Bell - also excellent, but I haven't yet made as much use of the exercises.)

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vivien

I write content for newsletters, websites, training information, official notifications - stuff like that. It's not fancy, fun writing, but it has weight and importance.

I also do a lot of RP and I get to blend the fanfiction elements with the collaborative writing experience.

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But writing like that is vital! People may not say much - like translators, nobody notices really high quality writing, you only get feedback when there's a problem - but when you get it right it makes a real difference.

I've heard you mention Milliways before - it sounds fascinating. I just don't have a quick enough wit to keep up with RP.

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vivien

Tell me what you mean by quick enough wit. I think our RP perceptions are way different. In my game, I can take allll the time I need to respond, and we often go into "slow time" where we tag up as we can. I think you not only have a quick enough wit, but you would enjoy a similar RP experience. I can tell you more about the game! Or introduce you to

mixed_muses where there are no rules, you can play anyone anywhere for however long you like to test out the voice. A lot of us try out new characters or do "what if" kinds of things there.

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I've written substantial parts of two multi-author books on architectural history, as well as editing these; I'm working on a third book, and an edition of a Victorian antiquary's notebooks. The day job involves quite a lot of writing, as well. No fiction (we won't talk about the project proposals...)

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That's a pretty impressive selection! And editing is a most wonderful skill which most writers don't have at all - a rare gift.

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Editing non-fiction is probably a lot easier than editing fiction. I've certainly read (though not necessarily finished) fiction which was crying out for a proper editor's attention, but it isn't a job which I'd want to take on. By comparison, checking facts, tidying up unclear, tendentious or verbose text (and forcing authors to get some sort of coherent flow of argument and a sensible balance of material) in non-fiction is relatively straightforward. Applying a consistent style to things like spelling, capitalisation, and references is just plain tedious - but someone's got to do it.

Should I mention that I also do book design, maps and plans, and photographs? But I'm definitely not a good enough artist to produce other illustrations.

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I think a lot of the skills for fiction and non-fiction editing are probably more or less the same - but resistance from authors is probably much greater. I'm always amazed at how little awareness of basic editing issues and coherence some people have.

*is very impressed with book design* Another of those things that make a huge difference!

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The ability to progress logically from A to B is reasonably common, but it seems that the ability to then argue to C and D is far less so, especially if M is more attractive.

Book design - indeed, much of typography - is fundamentally about white space rather than black ink. It's the frame that helps to make the picture intelligible; it's the space between and around letters that allows the eye to recognise and distinguish them. Good book typography, like good stage lighting, is unobtrusive and assists in making the scene intelligible and setting the context, without drawing attention to itself - but is none the less essential. If you notice the typography, unless there's a good reason for making you look at it, maybe there's something wrong. (Which is far too sweeping a generalisation, but it's the best I can do as a profound thought for a Friday evening!)

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Editor : author with a day job

from Publishing glossary

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dbassassin.livejournal.com

A significant part of my job is technical writing of a highly specialised type, so I spend a hellacious amount of time staring at the blinking cursor, sorting my thoughts.

As to your last question, I answered "no" because I think people will write if they feel compelled to, writing class or no writing class. However, if the question had been whether or not I thought writing classes helped people improve their writing skills, I'd say "maybe".

I think creative writing classes are a bit like seeing a therapist: success depends entirely on a whole slew of variables, including finding just the right teacher and a teaching format/methodology that best fits what you need.

I know some people have been helped by taking creative writing classes. However, I think this is entirely dependent on who is teaching it and the format. If the class is selective (you have to submit work as part of your application) the results are better than an ordinary evening class open to anyone, as the instruction can move beyond the absolute basics. That bare bones, most basic approach may help the incompetent improve marginally, but I don't think it helps people who already have some idea of how to go about it. Because any class moves at the speed of its slowest/least competent student.

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That's really interesting. One of the many things I learned from this poll that I wasn't expecting was how few people were prepared to come right out and say that Creative WRiting classes weren't much use. And I can imagine that for someone who has a great deal of drive, and has to use writing rigorously as part of work, most CR classes would be pretty meaningless.

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A good class can help you hone your craft. A bad class can destroy your soul.

All the classes in the world won't help you unless you practice by writing stuff regularly.

You can pick up a lot of the stuff that they teach you explicitly in classes by just writing through it and getting feedback from someone who knows their shit.

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Very nicely put, especially the first line. Sums it all up, really.

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I was lucky enough to take part in a pretty damn good four-week intensive creative writing class as part of a youth fine arts program. We wrote and workshopped several pieces through the whole thing, did many writing exercises, and had a grand old time. That was building on top of an unrelated course I'd taken somewhat before, on the noble five-paragraph essay.

(I later got involved with a writing group, and the feedback and moral support I got there was valuable. I can't say that I recommend an open writing group necessarily, because a few bad apples can make the whole thing pretty scary, and (sigh) it was abandoned by the previous leader and handed over to me, and I think I wound up killing it through sheer lack of ability to lead it ... but it was good while it lasted.)

By the time of the creative writing class, I'd been working on the Epic WIP for about three years, and had already completely filed off all the serial numbers I could identify. It would be a fair estimate that during those first 3 years or so, I put a minimum average of an hour a day into it.

You get two main good things out of a good creative writing class. First you get items for your tool kit -- exercises to put characters through, techniques for getting things across accurately, techniques for self-criticism. Second, you get analysis and tailored, constructive criticism of whatever specific piece you have brought to the table. Ideally, you get this from more than one person on the same piece. You learn that if everybody picks up on the same thing as a problem, it is some kind of problem and you had better do something about it, even if you were attached to that thing. Sometimes everybody will find something different, and sometimes the thing you actually need to fix is something that none of them picked up. The same thing will work for one of them but not another. Sometimes you pick up your papers to find that half of them loved one bit and the other half hated that very same bit. Bonus points if it's for the same reasons.

At the end of the day you have both discovered the strength to say "These are my words and these are how I have written them," and the humility and strength to say "Based on these things you have said, I have ripped my piece to pieces and rebuilt it stronger, and it would not be so strong if you had not shown me the places that it was weak."

You start out sometimes dreading the red pen. After a while, I reached a place where I welcome it, once I've come to the end of my own ingenuity in revision. I want to hear how I can make it better, because I have seen what happens when the rebuild takes something that was all right and makes it fly.

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It sounds like you've been supremely fortunate with your writing class - I would kill for an opportunity like that.

I have a very low self-esteem, and I always dread feedback of any description, but I've been knocking around on the edges of the writing world (in fandom and out of it) to be able to welcome it once it turns up. If that makes any sense?

I'd still kill for a chance at a creative writing class like yours, though. From the comments above, such classes are clearly very rare and precious things.

(ETA: I've had to delete a paragraph of this, as I've realised it gives away more of my RL identity than I'm comfortable having in open view on the Internets. Hope that's OK!)

Edited Date: 2009-03-31 11:16 am (UTC)

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